Curse

headlesshobbs · Jul 16, 2010, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Willing to spoil other people's fun.... oh wow.

Morphy · Jul 16, 2010, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Yes. That's exactly the effect shit builds like these have on PvP.

HigherMinion · Jul 16, 2010, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

It's a mindless build that contradicts the very core of Guild Wars fundamentals, skill over skills. In other words, it's a broken piece of shit that won't ever be balanced and is causing unnecessary problems. "Fun" seems to be an excuse that many people use for abysmal skills such as these, much the same for items in Super Smash Bros. I honestly don't understand how mindless builds like these can be considered fun and I understand even less why you're so egoistic that you're willing to spoil other people's fun because you want to keep this shit in the game so badly. Playing with or against this build is boring and requires not a single piece of thought.

Two simple dagger attacks cannot be considered OP OR mindless. You have to consider the rest of the build and consider the melee counters.

Morphy · Jul 16, 2010, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Two simple dagger attacks cannot be considered OP OR mindless. You have to consider the rest of the build and consider the melee counters.

You aren't serious are you? Exactly how do these "counters" of yours make these skills any less mindless? The rest of the build is just as mindless as the first part of it. If you didn't notice, JS/FF builds ALWAYS have a quick-recharging Dual Attack and Exhausting Assault equipped. That's the whole point of JS/FF: to skip to duals extremely fast and spam like a moron. Anyone with even the remotest signs of intelligence can figure out that skills like these will always be spammed on recharge as there is no timing and no skill involved.

I won't even start with "Overpoweredness" of these skills as that has no relevance whatsoever to balance (yes, you hear me right). Power is only relevant when proving what effect a skill has on the game, at which point more solid theories of balance take over. These skills are mindless as is every build that features them. That makes them broken. Regardless of how effective they are (in this case effective enough to be the FotM gimmick), they will NEVER be balanced.

The Josip · Jul 16, 2010, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

You aren't serious are you?

He's serious. He doesn't actually think these skills are balanced - he knows they are blatantly overpowered just like Ether Renewal and physical damage in general - it's just that he likes it that way and will not support any nerf and balance suggestion.

jazilla · Jul 16, 2010, 07:14 PM // 19:14

vor much? empathy much? ineptitude much? blurred vision+gust+glyph of immolation+steam much? want me to go on much? this is pointless. sins are one of the easiest classes to take down if you want to in guild wars. if you hate it so much or think everyone is using it, then just play counter to it in RA lolz. it's pretty simple.

headlesshobbs · Jul 16, 2010, 07:27 PM // 19:27

If you really want to complain about OP sins, you should be looking at the knockdown-spike, unless you have some type of block stance handy.

Sirius Bsns · Jul 16, 2010, 08:28 PM // 20:28

It's only OPed if you blatently bring nothing to counter them. Also, S.Bash, Empathy and Diversion + Blind completely destroy assassins (especially those who're bad at the game and using them).

Morphy · Jul 17, 2010, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

vor much? empathy much?

Empathy and VoR are featured in Hexway, which is an unhealthy build to begin with, not to mention that R/A Sway has a counter to this as well: Nature's Renewal. In a balanced game, these skills don't exist and should therefore not be taken into consideration when making balance decisions.

Quote:

ineptitude much? blurred vision+gust+glyph of immolation+steam much?

Nobody (currently) uses Water Magic in HA as Earth Magic snares are much more powerful in the cramped maps. Ineptitude is a problem of its own, although nobody ever uses it in HA.

Quote:

want me to go on much?

Please do, only next time take some skills that are actually balanced and used.

Quote:

this is pointless. sins are one of the easiest classes to take down if you want to in guild wars.

I'm not talking about Assassins here, I'm talking about two specific skills that render any Assassin primary or secondary build mindless. That is the real issue.

Quote:

if you hate it so much or think everyone is using it, then just play counter to it in RA lolz. it's pretty simple.

Except I'm talking about HA here, where the only viable counter is outplaying it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

It's only OPed if you blatently bring nothing to counter them.

As I said before, Overpoweredness is a flawed balance technique and whether they are overpowered or not is not my concern. The fact that they're mindless in whatever build features them makes them broken, which is what the real problem is here. This is something people in this thread agreed on, but was considered a non-issue as long as nobody used it. Now that it's back in HA, it once again became a problem.

Quote:

Also, S.Bash, Empathy and Diversion + Blind completely destroy assassins (especially those who're bad at the game and using them).

For Empathy, see above. Diversion can be easily countered by using a skill out of order, such as Assault Enchantments. Blind is theoretically a good counter, however, the balanced source of Blind (Blinding Flash) can Blind only one R/A at the time, which will get removed by the Monks instantly. Nobody uses Shield Bash, you need Channeling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

He's serious. He doesn't actually think these skills are balanced - he knows they are blatantly overpowered just like Ether Renewal and physical damage in general - it's just that he likes it that way and will not support any nerf and balance suggestion.

Is he talking PvE? This is a PvP problem. In PvE, there are so many imbalances that the only way to fix it is by redesigning the format.

To all of you, come on. Is that the best you can throw at me? Even if you find a valid, balanced counter in the meta, you still need to proof that it makes the builds any harder to play, which none of you even TRIED to prove so far.

system.fan · Jul 17, 2010, 04:46 PM // 16:46

I don't understand why some ppl always want skills to get nerfed...
You can't just nerf any skill that is too strong....
In the End every skill would be crap or even classes would be completely useless....

Or it would end in RA looking like "Dodgeball" from New-Year-Event xD.... All Skills do 50 dmg and people just try to prevent dmg with running away. As if that shit isnt boring =)

If Anet nerfs one skill they buff another... And guess what... 1 day later people start crying about new "overpowered" skill.... It's like a vicious circle lol

You can't expect GW to be perfect balanced... it never was and it never will be.
If you can't live with that in PvP... well go play PvE or another game. Nobody is telling you to play GW pvp :P

But well... many ppl that play "lame" builds like that are idiots so they are easy to pwn too... Go Hex and Coverhex and they fail within a minute.

so far...
system.fan

Rikimaru · Jul 17, 2010, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Everyone seems to be missing the point here; he isn't saying they're overpowered, I believe he's saying they're shallow and boring to play. And I agree.
I would love to be able to use something else instead, but there aren't many good alternatives; the other lead/offhands are all very gimmicky, requiring things like hexes or movement. You need fairly specific builds to get any use out of them, with very little versatility.
Jagged Strike in particular is the only basic, usable anytime lead.
In PvP, you can't even make effective use of the incredibly low cooldown on these without wasting slots on multiple dual-attacks.

I would greatly prefer them to have cooldowns of 4 or so seconds, with increased/added +damage.
I really think that all dagger skills in general need a re-balancing pass, though.

Reverend Dr · Jul 17, 2010, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by jazilla

vor much? empathy much? ineptitude much? blurred vision+gust+glyph of immolation+steam much? want me to go on much? this is pointless. sins are one of the easiest classes to take down if you want to in guild wars. if you hate it so much or think everyone is using it, then just play counter to it in RA lolz. it's pretty simple.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius Bsns

It's only OPed if you blatently bring nothing to counter them. Also, S.Bash, Empathy and Diversion + Blind completely destroy assassins (especially those who're bad at the game and using them).

You just completely missed the point. Yes Build Wars can beat it. The only thing Build Wars couldn't beat was the old GWFC FoC spike. Build Wars also is only relevant in GvG tournaments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by system.fan

I don't understand why some ppl always want skills to get nerfed...
You can't just nerf any skill that is too strong....

Quote:

Join Date: Aug 2008

I shouldn't expect you to understand the Nightfall powercreep. But just think back to the "elite skill buffs." This was done to promote diversity of elite skills. It did the exact opposite. Before the buffs there were about 3-4 warrior elites being used, after the buff only warrior's endurance. After about six months they changed warriors endurance, then it was six months of nothing but primal rage. Finally after both of those skills buffed were removed from play, then we saw some diversity. Nerfing a skill is effectively a buff for every other skill in the game. And the converse is true, buffing a skill is effectively a nerf for every other skill in the game.

The most important thing is to realize that these skills produce too effective play for the amount of effort put in. Its a "fun" bar because its "easy" and "gets results." The point that so many are ignoring is: those two should never go together. Bars that are easy should cap out in effectiveness well below bars that are not as easy. This doesn't create problems at the top of competitive play, but at all the levels below that (a lot more people play here than at the top) things just turn into a terrible mesh of bad builds that are just not fun to play against. And then that whole section of players will thin out, and it did thin out.

*lemming* · Jul 18, 2010, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rikimaru

Everyone seems to be missing the point here; he isn't saying they're overpowered, I believe he's saying they're shallow and boring to play. And I agree.
I would love to be able to use something else instead, but there aren't many good alternatives; the other lead/offhands are all very gimmicky, requiring things like hexes or movement. You need fairly specific builds to get any use out of them, with very little versatility.
Jagged Strike in particular is the only basic, usable anytime lead.
In PvP, you can't even make effective use of the incredibly low cooldown on these without wasting slots on multiple dual-attacks.

I would greatly prefer them to have cooldowns of 4 or so seconds, with increased/added +damage.
I really think that all dagger skills in general need a re-balancing pass, though.

Your post is very wrong in many ways.

system.fan · Jul 18, 2010, 12:06 PM // 12:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I shouldn't expect you to understand the Nightfall powercreep.

I play since 2006... I just didnt register here earlier cause english isnt my mother tounge and I didnt care for any foreign language forum before 2008 =)

I can understand that many ppl are pissed cause others can use easy builds and win more often with them than others with builds that need a brain...
But just nerf any strong skill isnt the answer....

@Rikimaru:
Well if the point rly is that they are boring to play... nobody forces him/you to play that build. there are a lot of other sin skills/builds =)

Morphy · Jul 18, 2010, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Quote:

I can understand that many ppl are pissed cause others can use easy builds and win more often with them than others with builds that need a brain...
But just nerf any strong skill isnt the answer....

Then enlighten me, what is? What is the point of keeping skills in the game that don't lead to good play? I personally prefer to change the functionality of skills if they're truly hopeless.

Quote:

@Rikimaru:
Well if the point rly is that they are boring to play... nobody forces him/you to play that build. there are a lot of other sin skills/builds =)

People that play them do force me to play against those builds, however. It's both boring to play against and with the build.

Desert Rose · Jul 18, 2010, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by system.fan

But just nerf any strong skill isnt the answer....

You have misunterstood something.
Nobody here wants to nerf a skill just because it is strong. We don't want to have skills that are strong AND mindless, and such skills should either be corrected by a nerf so they're no longer strong or a functional change to make them no longer mindless.

HigherMinion · Jul 18, 2010, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Anet need no-brain skills to keep bad players interested in the game. Ideally, they need to improve AI in PvE to make tank and spank useless; then the fun can begin. PvP is balanced at the moment. don't need a monk to win at the moment.

maxxfury · Jul 18, 2010, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Anet need no-brain skills to keep bad players interested in the game. Ideally, they need to improve AI in PvE to make tank and spank useless; then the fun can begin. .

When you arent a mindless sc drone...the fun is still there :P /wink.

Tho i think Anet should have learnt their lesson with 1/2 attacks skills with bow attacks and scythe attacks...but oh well.. too much ciompression lets any shi......er spike..

Pve, who cares while we have AP, er, super tanks ect...

shishkabibble · Jul 18, 2010, 07:42 PM // 19:42

This entire thread is pointless. Honestly. Think of what an assassin is. It's a 12345678 type of class. Use these skills in a row to kill your enemy fast, unless they counter. If they counter and kill your chain, you will most likely be helpless. It's what the assassin is. Now, when you talk about this class not being congruent with the guild wars philosophy, then I agree. But that's about the whole class, not these two skills. I can't believe this thread has dragged on for so long with people saying the same thing over and over.

R_Frost · Jul 19, 2010, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

In the light of the recent metagame developments, I believe this topic is again relevant. As expected, the builds are featured in an Sway set-up: http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_R/A_Sway. For the love of meow, nerf all aspects of this horrible gimmick build, that includes the Primary attribute independency of Ritualist heals (making it ideal for secondary abuse), the spirits that don't affect Weapon Spells and other Ritualist skills and the ridiculously mindless spam-on-recharge combo.

now is it the skills that are a problem or the fact that once again a team build is abusing broken game mechanics again with professions using bars full of secondary skills and out playing the professions they came from?